Transcript
0:00 Hey everybody, welcome to Radio Abundance. My name is Steve Boyle. I am your host and the Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America. This is our third episode in a series, a bit of a trilogy. We're filming together in person in studio in San Diego with a few folks from an organization called Lived Experience Advisors who have experienced life on the streets and now are working to do something about it and to support and stick up for people who are on the streets right now and help them become better advocates for themselves. And so we thought it would be an amazing opportunity. You know, we connected and thought it would be wonderful to get together and share a little bit about, you know, we're obsessed with the policy here and so is everybody in this room, but put it together with some of that lived experience. So you, over the last maybe two episodes, have maybe met our friends Natalie and Vanessa.
0:52 We have a third friend here today who is Rachel. So we're going to learn a little bit about Rachel and her experience. And we're going to talk about life in the shelter system and what that means from a policy perspective, right? What it means when, you know, we work so hard to get the political will and the dollars and the logistics to be able to put a roof over somebody's head with a shelter, for example. And what it means and why those spaces are still often seem less appealing to the folks they're for than life on the street because they are dangerous or humiliating. And Rachel is somebody who has experienced multiple shelters and also works at a shelter. And so it's going to be able to give us, I think, a few different perspectives. But so, first of all, thank you, watcher, listener, for being with us.
1:38 Thank you, Natalie and Vanessa, for spending so much time today. Thank you. And Rachel, thanks for joining us and thanks for being on Radio Abundance. Of course. You're welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I became homeless June 9th, 2012. Mm-hmm. And I went to jail on a petty warrant for 30 days, came out, lost everything. Had an opiate addiction. The minute, the day that I became homeless, though, I went and got on methadone. So I would not put myself in precarious situations or dangerous situations. I wasn't a, like, a stupid homeless person. Like, I thought about my health and my safety and my risk and those kind of things.
2:25 And I was homeless for over 10 years. And so is what you just said, you had an opiate addiction that basically kind of partly led you to homelessness. But as you became homeless, you were like, I want to get... You never let me to homelessness. Never led you to homelessness. No. No. No. No. Someone's step-mom called and turned me in on a petty warrant. Yeah. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. And what I was thinking about... So it sounds like the moment you kind of became homeless, you were like, I want to clean up. I want to get on methadone. I only bring this up to say that that sounds like a very challenging time to get sober is when you're just becoming homeless. And I'm curious what that experience of trying to wean yourself off of the opiates and take methadone, what that was like in that moment. You have to be off the opiates for three days before you can go on methadone.
3:15 Got it. And I just happened to be in a study, a medical study for antibiotics and spending the night there at Grossmont. And so, you know, it all worked out. It all worked out. And you know, it's not my timing. It's his timing. And what is... Was it Grossmont? What is Grossmont? It's a hospital. It's a hospital. And they used to do different, like for abscesses and stuff, they do like the trials, the clinical trials for different medications and whatnot. And I would volunteer. If something was going on, I'd be like, I'll join. And I, because I finished all of them and I, you know, I make $800, $1,500. Right. Yeah. So you have, you have this stretch of the hospital.
4:03 And then what? Street, van, shelter. What comes next? From the hospital, we, it was old man Pat, my pseudo brother Christian and I, and we didn't know that Pat was not paying his rent. So we got the eviction notice. But because I know the law of eviction, you don't just have to pack up and leave. You go down to legal aid and you file everything. And we got 90 days in his place and he did not get a black mark against his record. And then, um, when I hit the sidewalks, I knew, I mean, I've been fighting homelessness since I was like 16. Yeah. So, um, but that was the first time I'd ever been on sidewalk.
4:54 Yeah. And on the streets, kind of homeless. And, um, so I said, I can't be sick, but what do we do? And old man Pat took me up to the meth dome clinic in June 9th, 2012. And I was on it for seven or eight years. Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, we were talking before beginning. It sounds like, uh, like, like you've experienced early spent a night and in multiple different shelters and shelter-esque situations. Uh, the two of you, I don't know how much time you've spent in them, but you know, you're doing this work now, you know about them. Absolutely. Between the three of you. I mean, I, like, I'm not asking, don't name names. I mean, it's not, we don't need to brag on specific places, but I want the tour, right? Tell me about, you know, shelter a, and it's this big and it's like this and it feels like this.
5:41 And this is why I like it. And this is why I don't like it. Like I want to, I think it would be helpful for people who haven't experienced this, but are thinking about how to help and the policy and what works and doesn't work about these places to learn about some of them. Well, and I think what's interesting too, and what's important to know too, is a lot of people that are building these shelters haven't had these lived experience of us, the people that have lived in shelters. And you can tell by when you go into these shelters that the people that are building this, the system that is creating this, they've never experienced being homeless or having to go to a shelter. Cause if they had, you wouldn't have these 30 day shelters. You'd have shelters that are six months long. You'd have places that you can go and stay at and get groups and get resources and get healing and really be able to work on your behavioral, your mental, all of that to lead you into housing. The shelters we have today do not lead you into housing.
6:28 What they do is they lead you a lot back to the streets because there's no direct into housing. And so after 30 days, 30 days is not long enough for anybody to heal. You know, and when we had this idea of this 2,000 person shelter, this mega shelter. I don't want to talk about that. That's ridiculous. They were going to have an area for families. I'm sorry. I would never share my daughter. That's right. Any of my daughters ever, ever with, I don't, if it's a fam, another husband and wife, I will never share a room with my daughter and another man. So to ask somebody to do that is it. And if that's the only option they have, some people will take it because they want it.
7:14 You know, but at the same time, you've got to be so careful with your kids and walking into especially families. You know, it might be, you know, you know, a little different. I don't, I don't care that there's a poor, there's a petitioner. I don't. It's all it is is a petitioner. I mean, come on. No. And let's, let's put meat on this. But let's leave. Let's make sure that nobody can hear this and be like, oh, why are they being picky? Right, right. You know what I mean? Okay. Yeah. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm going to break you down for you. Do it. Okay. Uh, and I'm going to mention the shelter too because it's Alpha Project on 17th Street and it's a bridge shelter and they did, they're the ones that got me my housing. Yeah. And, um, uh, they, they have multiple shelters. Unfortunately, the best, the harm reduction one is closed, closed, unfortunately.
8:04 And then it's heartbreaking. And, but, okay, I got a 30 day timeout at Alpha Project. Okay. And in, I was, of course I was upset, right? So I'm going to HRC every day and they're like, oh, well, we can put you back at. Timeout meaning you couldn't go back for 30 days? For 30 days. And what's HRC? HRC is where you go and check in every single morning to see if there's a vacant bed at some shelter. And they tried to stick me in a shelter I had been in before that I only lasted 30 days at. And I said, no, and they didn't label me shelter resistant. They labeled me shelter picky because I know. Is that really a label? Yes. Yes. Remember I was telling you.
8:50 And can you explain? It is. I don't know if Steve knows this, um, and explain that you have to stand in line every day to see if, can you explain that for people who don't know what that means? You stand in line every, you get in line at seven. They don't open until eight. You stand in line every, all day long. The trick is this. If they tell you do not leave, you do not leave. That means you have a bed. You won't be told till the end of the day though. You can still sit there all day long. Do they give you food or water or do they help you? They used to. I don't know. Just wondering. They would give us water all the time. But food or anything? No. Let's roll back and do a play by play. Okay. All right. So is your first hypothetical person? Yeah. They've, you've, somebody's been like, there's a shelter that you're like, okay, I'm going to go to the shelter. So you go to the shelter, you go in the morning.
9:37 Do you go in the morning? I was told to be there by one o'clock in the morning. Be there by one, in the morning? I mean, one o'clock in the afternoon. Sorry. Get there by one o'clock in the afternoon. And then are you like in a line? Is it like acute? No. But, but how do they decide if they have, who gets in, if they have less beds than people in line? Okay. Did you say though that you started at 7am though? You said you had to get in line at 7am? For HRC. Okay. But when HRC said that they were going to, they said, well, we can put you back in this shelter. And I told them, no, I want to go back to the same shelter. They labeled me shelter picky because I know what will work for me. You're the expert. I cannot, okay, there's only, with me, there's 126 people, staff, and staff to deal with, and my multiple personalities that I have.
10:26 Yeah. And on top of that, I know that I cannot be in a shelter with 300 people. Right. And who really can? Who really can? Yeah. So, and so, what happened was, I was at the library. During my time out, I was living on Commercial Street under the bridge. Time out. I was at, I call it my time out. I mean, yeah. And I was at the library, and I was charging stuff, and then I got frustrated, and I went outside, and I heard people talking about Living Water, the church. And I said, ooh, Living Water, they're going to be open tonight. It's a church, and it's a shelter. I was there at three o'clock in the afternoon, kicking back, listening to music, munching on munchies, just waiting for them to open.
11:16 Yeah. First one in line. And then, and now, this will be my third season working with them for their shelter. And how long have you been housed? You've been housed how long? Just over two years. Two years. Yeah. And so, all right. So, you get there, maybe it's 7:00 AM, it's 1:00 PM. You wait in line. It's hot. It sucks. But finally, somebody says, yeah, you can stay here. At that point, are you there for a night? Are you there for 30 days? Bridge shelters, you can, I know people that have been in there two plus years. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And every shelter is different. Is different. Got it. It's different. Do you know going in, or are you like, let's see what happens? There are some, like we have, I'm up in North County more. Yeah. Okay. So, we have like the Buena Vista navigation shelter, and then we have the Oceanside navigation.
12:02 But, so those are 30 days. I'm not sure about the Buena Vista. I know that the Oceanside one is about 30 days. They can extend it. So, I've worked with a few of the people over there. Some of the counselors, you know, the counselors, what would they be called? I don't know. Case workers. Case managers. Case managers, sorry. They should be counselors too, of course. But, you know, I've worked with some of them, you know, to help get some people into housing through our diversion programs. But, but those are where you can stay. Now that might be different than what's down here. Cause that you can stay at during the day, but still 30 days. And how do you keep up with that? Yeah. Yeah. How do you keep up with that? What do you mean? Okay. So some, there are ones where you can stay years. You said stay during the day. So pack, unpack that. So other ones, you wake up in the morning and they're like, get out of here and come back at night? The rescue mission, prime example.
12:48 In the morning, if you're not part of the program. Right here downtown. Downtown. If you're not part of the program in the morning, you pack up your stuff and you leave. You come back at five. Right. And you stand in line and it's, and it's a 50/50 chance if you're going to get a bet there or not. Um, uh, that's, that's one reason I, and, and it's religion based and I, I, yeah, no. And I just happened upon living water shelter and started volunteering. I was there every day volunteering there from the streets. Um, I met my wonderful boyfriend there. That's right. Um, I just got over you two years clean now, you know, um, yeah. And, uh, it just, and I just, it's the first church I've ever, I, I've ever belonged to.
13:38 Yeah. It's church shelter. Can you tell about some of the experiences in the shelter that were? Which shelter would you like? Any of them. Any of them. Any of them where, what it's like to really, cause I've heard some, you tell some stories. And I think people need to hear it. I think people should hear that. Oh, well, you know, everybody has a good day or a bad day. And you, you get disrespectful towards, uh, staff and you start calling them out of name, not nice names. You can get kicked out and DNR'd and, uh, as long as, okay. I was very, very lucky. When I hit Alpha Project, I had just started the MAP program.
14:27 Okay. I was trying to save my life. Yeah. Go back to street drugs. And I was very, very, very sick. Yeah. But I was very, very honest. Not with Jesse who ran it at that time, but Mr. Jerome. And I call him my big teddy bear. There's actually articles with him and I in, in Voice of San Diego. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I go and visit him at least once a month. Yeah. To let him know how I'm doing and everything. And, um, the amount of honesty that I had with my, my case worker, Sadi E, uh, Khalif. And then Khalif who worked at night. There are two of them. Believe it or not. I can't believe it's such an odd name. Same name. Yeah. And then Mr. Jerome.
15:13 And they knew exactly what I was trying to do and why I was trying to do it. And the, the trauma and the, what my body was going through. I mean, I cold turkey kicked 45 milligrams of methadone. Yeah. It's huge. I had a stroke. Easy. Yeah. No, that's so hard. All my teeth disintegrated in my mouth. I just got these six months ago. Wow. That's right. Woo. Nice to mind. I get a lot of compliments on them. Um, I do. I get a lot. I'll be at a store talking to somebody. I get a lot of compliments on them. And, uh, so I, it's a, it's a very small shelter at Living Waters, 28 people.
16:01 Yeah. And I call it like glorified babysitting because you have to stay up from seven at night till 7:00 AM and get everybody out of there and clean it up. And so they'd have to leave at seven too. No, they, we wake them up at 5:30. We wake them up at 5:30 instead of four. But I'm the one that wakes everybody up and I do it very gently. Do it very gently. Very kind. That's right. That's right. And I say, please don't hit me. I'm going to touch you to wake you up. Yeah. You have to. Yeah. It's real. The trauma, the PTSD, the being out there. Keeping yourself safe. Yeah, looking at my husband now. I was going to say, uh, I'm a little, you know, I'm posh, privileged, and cushy. And if you try to wake me up in the morning, I, you know, it might happen before I realize that. No, I mean, you had a, you know, what, I mean, first of all, you had a, almost a euphemism a second, which was like, everyone has good days and bad days.
16:53 Yeah. I think that's an incredible way to put it. You also talked about a room of 300 people. Like if you are with a bunch of people. A bunch of people. Yeah. And personalities. And personalities. Somebody is going to have a bad day. And if you're with a hundred people and one person has a bad day, I think a hundred people are going to have a bad day. And it's okay to have bad days. It's okay to say, talk to somebody. It's okay to maybe, you know, cuss somebody out and say, you know, I'm having a fucking hard day. You're pissing me off. You shouldn't be DNR'd or shouldn't be saying, you know, they should understand, you know. It's when they start calling them, I'm just going to come out right and say, they call them out of name. They call them the N word. They call them very disrespectful. Which is not okay. Which is not okay. Which is not okay. I'm sorry. There's limits. Absolutely. Now that you work on that side too. And we all kind of do. We know like, yeah, and we've been out there. Okay. There's a way to handle things and respond.
17:39 And that's not how we do it. No. That's not how we do it. We grow. I've been through so many de-escalation classes. Right. And like my partner that I work with, you never work alone. There's always two of us and Anthony, who's like my best friend that I work with and from the church. He always tells me, go handle the problem, Rachel. Yeah. I got your back. Don't worry about it. That's right. Go handle the problem. Because Anthony, I have a very hot head. Okay. I am. No, you don't. Yes. What are you talking about? No, but Anthony's is about a hundred times worse than mine. Right. I've seen Anthony grab a man and throw him over the ramp and over the rail. I'm excited. You know what I noticed though? When the time when we were homeless and tensions were getting flared up, the aggression starts becoming, you know, back and forth.
18:32 My, my children started to see that the officers were being a little bit more aggressive in the way that they talked. And I was starting to be, you know, where they were starting to get nervous because these tensions like start building up. It's like, you know, where things started opening back up in COVID and I'm starting to feel like the tension. If you, can you feel that tension? It's. Well, look with the, yeah. I mean, look at what's going on in the country. We are trying to criminalize homelessness all over the federal, you know, so let's be real. And the thing is, is not even homeless, poor. Let's be real. It's poor people. It's poor people. And the AMI just real fast is what, 125,000. So if you don't make 125,000 or so, you're considered on poverty level. Okay. So that is a lot of us that are working really hard. Right. So it's just the whole narrative needs to shift.
19:18 Let me, let me ask you something. This is coming. I mean, I'm going to show my like ignorance and difference here. Right. Like, but like I just need to ask, cause there is one thing I'm sorry to not know this, but that is popping to me, which is the getting kicked out during the day part. Oh yeah. Like that because, because, okay. First of all, nobody likes to be woken. You like your first experience that day is maybe to be woken up and kicked out. Like the fact, like the fact that you like wonderful, very good. What a wonderful thing that the taxpayer dollars putting a roof over your head at night. But if it's not putting a roof over your head during the day, then every day is actually a ritual of alienation. Every day you are kicked out of your house again. Good thing you can come back at night, but you are kicked out. At my church. Yeah.
20:04 And yours might be one of the only ones that has a little more of love. Okay. We have a, okay. We have a very special way of running it. Yeah. Okay. Verdunity, compassion, kindness, caring, and love. Yeah. There's only four rules. The first three rules, and we all know what that is. And no stealing from each other. And of course you, we all know though, it's still hard to be woken up at 5:30. Even you are the gentlest, most loving, and I know you are. And let me tell you something. But to be woken up and then made to leave. Not yours. No, you. We're not talking about yours exactly. We're just talking about the shelters in general that we're talking about. We're talking about the majority of them. Not yours exactly, but the other ones when you have to leave at 5:30 in the morning or 6:00.
20:52 And you have to be out there doing what? Four o'clock is one of them. Yeah. And what are you doing out there all day? Like you said, you're reliving this trauma. Okay. With mine, you're woken up to, good morning, there's coffee made, and I have oatmeal and pastries for you. But that's not the norm. That's not the norm. Because you do that because of your lived experience. You do that because you've been out there, and you do that because you have that compassionate heart, because you know what it's like to be out there. You know, the safe parkings, the safe parking lots are the same. They were giving us tickets, and they said, there's safe parking. And I said, I cannot pack my kids, my son plays football for the high school team. You have to be in at a certain time, and you have to be out at a certain time. How do you do that? I can't be in by seven o'clock. My son has football practice after school. I can't be there by eight o'clock. He's practicing high school football until 8:30.
21:39 I remember those days. You know, okay. So, and partly I'm grabbing the conversation because, simply, we don't have that much time left. And we can talk all day long. And we will. Like, I will come back because this is amazing. And I want to drill so much more into this. You've actually gone to the place I wanted to get to before, like, I have to kick us out. Or rather, because other people kick me out, right? Which is, I was going to ask you. I thought this would be the most fun/off-putting way to say this. But what is the creme, the de la creme of shelters, right? Like, in other words, for people who might be designing these or thinking about the policies, what should they emulate? What places are good? What features? What features? And I, and I, I, yeah. Please, tell us. Tell us what works. Yeah. Alpha Project. Yeah. Okay. They have adopted, the city has adopted a set of rules. Yeah.
22:25 Finally. I've been begging for it. City of Ocean? Or City of San Diego? Uh-huh. City of San Diego. But it doesn't apply to safe parking because it's ran by the county. Okay. It's only for the shelters. It only applies to, like, Alpha Project, um, Rachel's. As long as the county doesn't have their foot in it, their hands in it, they, they cannot DN, they cannot DNR you, they cannot kick you out at midnight. They have to have a mediator come in if they need to, talk to you, try to figure out the problem, get it settled, either let you stay or find you a place to go. Yeah. Yeah. So I, look, I have a thought. Yeah. And, uh, and then kind of a question and we're basically gonna, each person be able to say, like, one thing. Sure. Wherever we end is where we're gonna end, right? Absolutely.
23:11 But there is something, I mean, you talked about the smell of coffee in the morning. Mm, so important. And my mind, I mean, because, okay, so my background, again, is as, like, as an experienced designer. In other words, like, I was a theater director. Right. And then I became an immersive theater director, which means that actually, like, every little sensation, every smell, like, you can use smell and sound to change people's experience. Everything. And it's a good lesson because outside of those fictional entertainment environments, you can actually use, like, a little smell to just, like, change somebody's lives. Yeah. And when I hear about the coffee. Mm-hmm. Okay, so, you know, because somebody might hear this and be like, oh, does everybody want fresh pancakes in the morning? How are we supposed to do that for every citizen? And that's all I'm saying. Like, think about the costs and logistics that go into running a shelter. Yeah. The cost to assemble it. The cost to liability. The labor. Right? Think about all the costs. And now think about the cost of coffee.
23:57 Coffee for 300 people. It's a lot. It's not, like, amortized. It's nothing. And yet, the slight change and the little bit of hope and dignity that comes with smelling coffee in the morning changes your life. Like, in terms of ROI, in terms of bang for your buck, the smell, I genuinely believe the smell of coffee can change somebody's life. At least in a more cost-effective way than some of the other stuff. All I know is if I don't wake up with a cup of coffee, you got one ugly person to deal with. I had a French press. We had our own little pop-up stove, and I would French press our coffee, and I would sit and I'd pour me and my husband a cup of coffee and be like, "You're my best friend." It was my safe. It's a ritual. You wake up, and it just at least gave me that moment.
24:46 That cup of coffee, you drink and it warms you for that moment. So I want to say something real fast, because you mentioned how coffee's expensive with 300 people, right? But this is what it's all about. You bring in community members. You know, when I started my nonprofit and we opened that shelter and it was COVID, all of a sudden I realized I have 15 rooms. I have 30 people here and I need food. Yeah. So I started just going out to the community on my Facebook, sharing my story. Hey, can somebody bring coffee in the morning? Then I had Monday through Friday, Monday through Sunday, all of a sudden people are bringing coffee. People are bringing food every day for almost a year and a half. So even though things get expensive, even though it seems overwhelming, you bring community. You change their hearts. Yeah. You make them realize I'm the face of homelessness. And what I'm saying is- I'm the face of someone that has been out there, but I'm also the face of somebody that the unintended outcome that has risen above those circumstances.
25:33 And here I am fighting now and advocating and housing people, you know? So it's just about us realizing, let's change that narrative. That's what we're doing here. You know? Our lived experience, our voice is you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For letting us have somewhere where we can share. Thank you. You know, it's- And I'm honestly devastated to bring this to an end. And I hate it. I was making nice reaction noises and I'm sorry because what you just said was beautiful and I want to put it in a social media clip and it's going to be me moaning the whole time. But my point around coffee as we bring this to a close is that it's not expensive. No. And I'm perfectly fine with people who know more than me watching this and leaving comments to be like, actually it is, but it's not. It's not. I throw events. It is water and beans. And like, I'm not saying it's not, I'm not saying like, oh, the tax, like that's easy for tax paying, but I'm saying compared to everything else that goes into it, you will not notice, but the difference it makes, you will notice those little things.
26:26 Correct. That's true. In the shelters. Yeah. Okay. There, I had experienced mornings where I always have my own coffee. Okay. I experienced mornings where the shelter did not have coffee and trust and believe. Different situation. I shared my coffee with every person there and my creamers. And no, I mean, I had jars of instant coffee always on hand, just in case, because that is the way a person starts the day off. Good. Yeah. Yeah. It is very, it is, I am very sorry. We've, I mean, look, we have spent like two hours together today. We've done a three part trilogy about homelessness and I'm going to end it by talking about myself. Okay. Sorry everybody. But I really, again, I like, but it's, it's the coffee thing because again, look, we're all, I'm, I'm here, we're thinking about the policy and what we can actually do.
27:19 Right. And you look at policy and these, like this amazing community of people who are empathetic and data driven and want to solve problems, but hardly ever, like, I mean, you just don't think of smells. Right. I really mean that like the little things in terms of the money, in terms of the impact on people, in terms of life change, in terms of human psychology, in terms of things that change you, we know how important a lot of this stuff is. We know we can measure it. Right. Like the, like, like you wouldn't, it wouldn't be natural. I don't think, again, please correct me if I'm wrong. I would love to learn that. And then you can come on the program and tell me, but like, I don't, if I was going to sit down and design the policy to help people in shelters, I don't, it would take me years before I would think, wow, a little bit of the smell of coffee could be transformative. And yet I think it would be. And I wonder now what other opportunities, just a little touch of experience design and a little touch of sensation that you wouldn't know unless we talked about it.
28:10 And you mentioned coffee and all of our minds went, oh my God, I thought that was amazing. And I'm sure all of you want to respond to that and you can't because they want us to leave. But that means, I mean, first of all, I just could not be more grateful for each of you. I mean, I'm sorry. I was late. You're incredible. You're great. And I will come back and we will spend much more time together. I would love to. Vanessa, this was amazing. Thank you. And Natalie, both to be here today and to set this up. And you did. I mean, it was you who like sent me a cold email and we're like, we need to talk. And like, I actually, and I got that and I was like, is she going to yell at me? And then we talked and it was like amazing. And this is incredible. And so you, you get the last word before I say the final sentence. Just, and you can tell me, you can tell the camera. I mean, don't tell me cause I'm away from the camera. So tell the camera or Vanessa, but bring us home. I want to say thank you for the opportunity for letting, letting us speak because I think, um, we can touch some people and I appreciate you giving me this platform, us this platform to speak today.
29:10 I really appreciate it. So thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you to the team at, at, uh, lived experience advisors. Thank you, Rachel, Vanessa, and Natalie. Thank you. Uh, you are the audience of radio abundance for, for watching or, or listening or reading and just thanks for being a part of this. Also thank you to content factory, San Diego, uh, who've been an amazing, uh, host. We've just done a, I think we got five episodes today. We talked to Congressman Scott Peters, talked to the team from even Democrats of San Diego County, uh, and did our little, uh, a trilogy with lived experience advisors. We're very grateful. Uh, content factory, San Diego was a fantastic to work with. I mean, I haven't seen the footage yet, but I assume it looks really nice. And, uh, so, so check them out. If you're in San Diego, give them a follow. They got nice pictures on Instagram. Uh, thank you everybody. Thank you at home. Thank you. And thanks for tuning into Radio Abundance.